Tolerance - what's that?

[viking60]

rolf:
The parents are always controlling the joy of the children. Intolerant or not. (Adults do NOT have rights - only children have, that is why tolerance doesn't even apply for the adults - gay or not). Children are not a prize that can be given to hetro or gay couples. I agree with you there rolf - I have Zero tolerance for that (yes I am intolerant on that issue).
I think your views on Iraq and Afghanistan are to the point - I agree.
dedanna
Your views on Afghanistan seem somewhat exotic. Theories and speculations. Osama Bin Laden admitted to 9/11 - and he was proud of it.

[rolf]

I am not sure what you agree or disagree with. The happiness I describe is a fundamental, fulfilling happiness all parents, birth or adoptive, hetero or gay, can feel from nurturing the child. It seems to be in the DNA. I have not felt that, except to some extent with my cats, but I perceive the phenomenon in parents of human dependents. I am saying that nurturing gay couples can provide this resource for orphan children as well as, often better than hetero couples. The success of the performance of that role is not a matter of sexual identity. It is not a materialistic concept of possessing children but a more humanistic concept of providing the needs of the next generation. There are far too many children without parents to deny them the chance of a good, nurturing upbringing because of sexual identity bigotry.

[dedanna1029]

I threw in Afghanistan as it was a certainty we have been lied to about it. On the whole, my sentiments were that what happened on 9/11 was a terrible act and a military response was justified. It was touching to see photographs from all over the world of people, many children, commiserating with America over this event at that time. However, Bush and his handlers soon squandered all that good will, lying about Hussein being connected to the action and pushing a sociologically, economically, and morally destructive war on Iraq. A hint of the truth about Afghanistan is revealed in reports of how Donald Rumsfeld passed over an opportunity to get bin Laden.

Donald Rumsfeld could have given the order to kill or capture Osama bin Laden, but he let him escape to Pakistan because he was afraid of angering U.S. allies in Afghanistan. This shocking report was published Sunday in the New York Times and several other outlets and is culled from information revealed in a detailed analysis released by the Senate Foreign Relations Committee of the crucial days in December 2001 when bin Laden and and his top lieutenant, Ayman al-Zawahiri, were pinned down in caves high up in the White Mountains in eastern Afghanistan.
...
Various journalists note that by the time the American and Afghan forces had bin Laden and his al-Qaeda entourage pinned down in caves, Rumsfeld had already switched his focus to an impending invasion of Iraq and was more concerned with mounting a successful “regime change” in that nation then in capturing the man roundly blamed for the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. As for Franks, in official reports, he questioned whether or not bin Laden was actually still hiding out in Tora Bora in December 2001, despite reliable field reports all but guaranteeing that he most certainly was bunkered there.

I don't presume to define happiness for gays or anyone for whom their being happy creates no harm for me. From what I have seen in media, being able to get married is something that makes some people happy, in terms of sentiment or the social status that comes from a public taking of vows, whatever, it's not for me to judge. The social benefits that derive from from the marriage contract are a source of happiness in the lives of those who enjoy them; at least, denying them seems to make people unhappy. I said nothing about a right to have children. It seems there are a lot of excess children for whom care from natural (heterosexual, mostly) parents is not forthcoming, through misfortune or, more often, lack of good character. Furthermore, it seems gay foster parents do as well or better than heterosexual parents in providing care for foster children, making their life happy. Lastly, this process of caring for children seems to make some people happy. Those controlling people who would attempt to define the joy of others whose joy is none of their business, who would attempt to proscribe another person's attempt to experience happiness when no harm comes from that attempt are clear examples of intolerance.

God damn right. Every word. + 1.

[dedanna1029]

dedanna
Your views on Afghanistan seem somewhat exotic. Theories and speculations. Osama Bin Laden admitted to 9/11 - and he was proud of it.

You wanna see frikking exotic? I'll show you exotic.

http://www.reopen911.org/ - (do order the dvd, won't you? I not only ordered it, I held a whole meeting and passed out the dvd to all who had ears to hear)

http://www.impeachbush.org/site/PageSer ... e=homepage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_a ... e_Iraq_War

http://www.ontheissues.org/Domestic/Bar ... Gay_Rights

#
Iraq War
#FactCheck: Opposes surge--hasn’t produced political solution. (Sep 2008)
# Unwise war in Iraq distracted us from catching Bin Laden. (Sep 2008)
# The surge is a tactic to contain 4 years of mismanaged war. (Sep 2008)
# FactCheck: Iraq has at most $59B surplus, not $79B surplus. (Sep 2008)
# FactCheck: Promised 16-month exit; now 16-month reduction. (Sep 2008)
# You don’t defeat a terrorist network by occupying Iraq. (Aug 2008)
# I will only send our troops into harm’s way when necessary. (Aug 2008)
# Situation has improved in Iraq; but it’s still fragile. (Jul 2008)
# Surge reduced violence; but distracts us from long-term goal. (Jul 2008)
# $10 billion a month spent in Iraq should be spent in the US. (Jul 2008)
# President sets Iraq mission; Generals then implement tactics. (Apr 2008)
# President sets Iraq mission; give generals a new mission. (Apr 2008)
# 2002 anti-war speech was not popular opinion at that time. (Apr 2008)
# $2.7 billion each week of Iraq spending is unsustainable. (Feb 2008)
# Humanitarian aid now for displaced Iraqis. (Feb 2008)
# FactCheck: Overstated displaced Iraqis; actually 4.2 million. (Feb 2008)
# The Iraq war has undermined our security. (Jan 2008)
# Iraq is distracting us from a host of global threats. (Jan 2008)
# End the war, and end the mindset that got us into war. (Jan 2008)
# The Iraq war was conceptually flawed from the start. (Jan 2008)
# Title of Iraq war authorization bill stated its intent. (Jan 2008)
# Get our troops out by the end of 2009. (Jan 2008)
# No permanent bases in Iraq. (Jan 2008)
# FactCheck: No, violence in Iraq is LOWER than 2 years ago. (Jan 2008)
# Congress decides deployment level & duration, not president. (Dec 2007)
# Surge strategy has made a difference in Iraq but failed. (Nov 2007)
# Leave troops for protection of Americans & counterterrorism. (Sep 2007)
# Hopes to remove all troops from Iraq by 2013, but no pledge. (Sep 2007)
# Tell people the truth: quickest is 1-2 brigades per month. (Sep 2007)
# No good options in Iraq--just bad options & worse options. (Aug 2007)
# Be as careful getting out as we were careless getting in. (Jul 2007)
# We live in a more dangerous world because of Bush’s actions. (Jun 2007)
# Case for war was weak, but people voted their best judgment. (Jun 2007)
# War in Iraq is “dumb” but troops still need equipment. (Apr 2007)
# Open-ended Iraq occupation must end: no military solution. (Apr 2007)
# Saddam is a tyrant but not a national security threat. (Mar 2007)
# Iraq 2002: ill-conceived venture; 2007: waste of resources. (Feb 2007)
# Saddam did not own and was not providing WMD to terrorists. (Oct 2004)
# Iraq War has made US less safe from terrorism. (Oct 2004)
# Invading Iraq was a bad strategic blunder. (Oct 2004)
# Democratizing Iraq will be more difficult than Afghanistan. (Oct 2004)
# Never fudge numbers or shade the truth about war. (Jul 2004)
# Set a new tone to internationalize the Iraqi reconstruction. (Jul 2004)
# Iraq war was sincere but misguided, ideologically driven. (Jul 2004)
# Not opposed to all wars, but opposed to the war in Iraq. (Jul 2004)
# International voice in Iraq in exchange for debt forgiveness. (Jul 2004)

http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/Barack_Obama.htm

Musings? I can give you a shitload of this that is not "theories" and "musings".

Want the books too that I mentioned earlier about Cheney and Bush both? I can provide those as well. Want the videos of our "world leaders" at the Grove in Cali (see The Skull & Bones Society)? Yep, I can provide those as well.

Final edit: Oh yeah, and the only reason Osama Bin Laden admitted to anything at all, is because he was ordered to by the U.S. (or some fictitional character that the U.S. picked out to did).

[dedanna1029]

I has a research paper that you both might like to see that I wrote for my English 104 class in college (1993). Might prove interesting, as it even covers a portion of what is spoken about here.I got a commendation for it, and I was also allowed (the only one in my class) to expand on it from 12 pages, to 20.

[viking60]

I am not sure what you agree or disagree with.

I agree that pulling in Iraq in the "war on terror" was BS. It had nothing to do with 9/11 and nothing to do with Bin Laden, and nothing with Afghanistan. There simply is no reason left that can justify that invasion.

Dedanna:
Exotic indeed.
I am out of words.

[dedanna1029]

I don't think ever in my life that I've felt this strongly about any politically-oriented song. I don't love it like I do for the same reasons that the neocon-type conservatives do. Listen to the lyrics, closely.

[viking60]

Cool!

[dedanna1029]

Gay visitation order shows how Obama brings big change with small actions

President Obama's decision Thursday night to grant same-sex couples hospital visitation rights is the latest and most visible example of a strategy to make concrete steps toward equality for gays and lesbians without sparking a broad cultural debate or a fight with Congress.

'bout damn time.

[dedanna1029]

I have very little faith in any leader. Anyone who wants to tell other people how to live is wrong-headed. The democrats, the party to which I am registered, have a more humanistic persona, I think, so that's one, small advantage, but they are all complicit in facilitating the rise of a god of gold to the position of ultimate authority and the sick society that results.

And the men who hold high places
Must be the ones who start
To mould a new reality
Closer to the Heart
Closer to the Heart

The Blacksmith and the Artist
Reflect it in their art
Forge their creativity
Closer to the Heart
yeah, it's closer to the Heart

Philosophers and Ploughmen
Each must know his part
To sow a new mentality
Closer to the Heart
Yeah, it's closer to the Heart

You can be the Captain and
I will draw the Chart
Sailing into destiny
Closer to the Heart

Closer to the Heart...
--Rush

I actually think they had it spot on back then.

[dedanna1029]

Boss, due to some things that have happened lately that I can't go into here, I have been thinking on this topic more and more...

Am learning. Thank you.

[R_Head]

I have no tolerance towards feeble minded people...